Laura interviews Phil Buchanan and Grace Nicolette from The Center for Effective Philanthropy (CEP) about ways to give more.
Laura interviews Phil Buchanan and Grace Nicolette from The Center for Effective Philanthropy (CEP) about ways to give more.
Money Girl is hosted by Laura Adams. A transcript is available at Simplecast.
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Most of us would like to give more to causes we care about, whether animal welfare, the environment, or curing a disease. However, you may have issues holding you back from giving, like your budget, finding the right charitable organizations, or understanding how to maximize charitable tax breaks.
Today, I'm excited to be joined by two special guests from The Center for Effective Philanthropy (CEP). The first is Phil Buchanan, President of CEP and a passionate advocate for the importance of philanthropy. He's an award-winning author of Giving Done Right: Effective Philanthropy and Making Every Dollar Count.
Phil was named "Influencer of the Year" by the Nonprofit Times and has been named 12 times to their "Power and Influence Top 50" list, most recently in 2023. He serves on multiple boards of directors, writes, speaks in the media, and co-hosts the Giving Done Right podcast.
Our second guest is Grace Nicolette, CEP's Programming and External Relations Vice President. She co-hosts the Giving Done Right podcast with Phil and frequently speaks to foundations and boards about philanthropic effectiveness in China.
Before joining CEP, Grace co-founded a philanthropic advisory firm in Shanghai. She was named a Young Global Leader by the World Economic Forum in 2011 and was educated at Harvard and the University of Pennsylvania with honors.
As you'll hear in today's interview, Phil and Grace believe everyone can be a better giver, whether you have $100 or $100 million to give away. So, if you want to learn more about putting your money to work for causes you care about, stay with me.
Hi, Friends! I'm Laura Adams, an award-winning author, and Money Girl host with over 43 million downloads. As always, you can reach me using my contact page at LauraDAdams.com. That's also where you can learn more about my work and books and sign up for The Money Stack newsletter.
In my interview with Phil and Grace, we talk about:
Laura Adams
Grace and Phil, I want to welcome you to the Money Girl podcast. I'm so thrilled to have you with me.
Phil Buchanan
Thanks for having us.
Grace Nicolette
So good to be here, Laura, thank you.
Laura Adams
Let's start out by talking a little bit about your backgrounds. I would love to know just how you came to get involved with the Center for Effective Philanthropy or CEP in the first place. Grace, let's start with you.
Grace Nicolette
Yeah, you know, like a lot of people, I backed into working in philanthropy, right? There's like professional degrees and things like that. But I would say generally a lot of us didn't know that we were going to end up in philanthropy. And that was definitely true for me. I was working in finance and I was actually working in Shanghai. I'm a US citizen, but I was working abroad and I was volunteering on the side in addition to my finance job. And I actually just got a lot of enjoyment and like personal fulfillment through some of my volunteering.
And, so, when I was at a career crossroads, I thought, you know, what if I just like tried doing something that was a little bit more mission aligned with my values? And then, and actually the rest is history. So I started a small consulting firm, they're helping donors and foundations find projects in China. And then I actually started following Phil on Twitter back then, because he always had a really interesting point of view. And so when I moved back to the States in 2011 to get married and was looking for a job,a job at CEP came up and I was like, you know what? I love this group. So I'm going to actually apply for it. And, and then now I've been there for almost 13 years.
Laura Adams
Amazing. Phil, how about you?
Phil Buchanan
Yeah. I mean, like Grace, I didn't really know what I wanted to be when I grew up. But, worked in higher education administration for a little while. Got an MBA, worked in strategy consulting in the corporate world, was looking for something that had a little more purpose and got hired as the first,
I guess my title at the time was, executive director of the Center for Effective Philanthropy. And there was just a little bit of money raised, no staff other than me initially. And the idea was, could we develop an organization that would provide resources to help donors to be more effective? And the initial focus was kind of institutional donors, like big foundations. But now we've really broadened our audience to trying to reach individual donors as well as institutional grant makers all over the world. And it's been fun. I've been here for 23 years and I was thrilled when we were able to get Grace to join us. And, you know, it's just been a really, really fun and rewarding two decades.
Laura Adams
That's terrific. I have not done a lot of podcasts on the topic of giving and philanthropy in general. So, I'm super excited to talk to you both about this because it's so important. And I'm curious if you guys could maybe just sum up CEP, you know, in a nutshell, what do you do and, what are your kind of day -to -day roles? Grace, let's start with you.
Grace Nicolette
Sure. So we are a nonprofit based in the United States. We have an office in Cambridge, Massachusetts, where Phil and I are based and also San Francisco office. And really our mission is to help donors and funders be more effective because when they are more effective, the dollars go further, communities are better served. And we really want to do that with data and evidence, right? So like, you know, in other spheres, you can bring data and evidence to good practice. And the belief is that we can do that in giving as well. And so, yeah, I'll let Phil chime in with other things, but that would be like the nugget of it.
Phil Buchanan
Yeah, no, everything Grace said and Grace leads all our programming and external relations. So she leads a bunch of different resources that we have, like conferences, webinars, a blog, a podcast that we do together and we're just launching a new season of it right now. And then I'm the president of CEP and have been in that role, as I said before, absolutely forever. And I think to Grace's point, what we see is that people who have accumulated wealth and want to do some good with it, tend not to know where to turn. And they tend to think that everything they learned in building their business or doing whatever they did to accumulate wealth is going to apply in the philanthropic context. And it doesn't quite translate so easily. It's a different world because nonprofits tend to be working on the toughest challenges, the ones that have defied either market -based solutions or government solutions.
And so it's tricky and important work. And we try to provide resources, not so much focused on you should care about this issue, or you should care about that issue. I think that's up to the donor to figure out based on their values and their interests. But then once you have decided, how do you do it, as Grace said, as effectively as possible, and in an evidence based and data driven way.
Laura Adams
That's terrific. I would say there are probably people listening to this show who are just starting out. Maybe they don't have a whole lot to give or think they don't have a lot to give right now. Maybe all the way up to people who are even pre -retirees, even retirees who maybe have planned a little bit more for their giving and are a little bit more intentional about it.
Let's start for the beginners. If somebody wants to be charitable, they're listening and they're thinking, hmm, gosh, know, year-end is coming, Q4 is typically a good time to think about donations. What should somebody know if they don't have a big budget? What advice can you give them? Let's start with Grace.
Grace Nicolette
Yeah, I think that oftentimes we are already connected to causes and we have values that we have or things that we really care about and we may not realize that that's a good place to start. So for instance, if folks really care about animals or the environment, or they themselves have experienced a personal experience, for instance, like getting a scholarship when they were younger, getting a hand up, all of those are really powerful places to start to ask the question, what do I care about? And what would I like to be involved in? And then looking around and having conversations with people like, who do I already have relationships with? What are the nonprofits in my neighborhood and in my community?
And so I know that taking some of that first step and asking these questions can feel a little bit daunting, but I think that starting close to you is actually a great place. And also recognizing that this is a journey, right? Like we are, you start and you learn as you go. And just like in any sphere that you take part in if you're new into business or if you're learning a new skill in life, it is something that you learn to get better at. So starting local, starting close to you, and actually just getting started is a big step because so much of the time I see that donors hold back, they don't realize that a lot of the learning and transformation is on the other side of starting to give. You don't really know until you've kind of begun the journey.
Laura Adams
Yeah, that's great. Phil, what about you? Can somebody think about maybe volunteering time if they don't have a huge budget to begin?
Phil Buchanan
I think volunteering is a terrific way to start actually. Research shows, not research we've done, but research by very credible folks, I believe at Notre Dame, that volunteering and giving leads to greater happiness, which is really interesting. And the science shows that it affects our brains. It affects our overall mental health. So absolutely jump in and get involved, whether it's by volunteering or giving. And I could not agree with what Grace said more, which is just start. Just throw yourself into something.
Now, if you have a lot of resources, that might be a different story. And then maybe you want to look to the ecosystem of organizations and resources that exist to help people like you. And I like to suggest that people, particularly if they're interested in giving locally, start with their local community foundation. In almost every region in this country, there's a local community foundation whose role is to match individual donors who want to do something with nonprofits in the community whose goals are aligned with that individual donor's priorities. They have the knowledge and expertise.
And so if you have more resources, maybe you are approaching retirement and you realize that actually you don't want to leave all your money to your kids, which they don't really need, and you actually want to leave a different kind of legacy, make an appointment at your local community foundation and chat with them.
Laura Adams
That's great. So Phil, let's say I am thinking, okay, I do want to get involved. How do you vet organizations? I think a lot of people may be hesitant in some cases to give because they think, is my money really going to go where they say it's going to go? Is it really going to have the intended effect that they're advertising or they're telling me? So that may hold some people back from giving and maybe that's more on a national level, maybe on the local level, people have a little bit more information and knowledge about those local organizations. What tips could you give someone just to feel more confident about the organization that they're giving to?
Phil Buchanan
Yeah, that's a great question, Laura. And I think people often look for, well, what is the metric? What is the analog to ROI or profit that I can use? And it's not so simple because you can't actually compare apples to apples by the same metrics for how an organization working to improve high school graduation rates in Cleveland with an organization focused on climate change.
So it's a little bit more nuanced. And I think the questions that any organization should be able to answer, and you should pretty much be able to find it on their website, is what are they doing? What are their goals? Are they clear? That's one question. Second, how are they doing it? What is their strategy? Is there an approach? Third, is there evidence that their strategy is working? And I think if you, if you see compelling answers to those questions, and particularly if you see, not to say you shouldn't fund something that's newer, but if you see that there's other funders, right, reputable other funders, that's a good sign that there's been some level of vetting. So, so that, that's one, one piece of advice.
The other piece of advice would be, if you do believe in the organization's goals, don't worry so much about exactly how your grant is used. You can trust that the leaders are seasoned people who know what they're doing. sometimes we see people obsess over, well, I want my giving to the food pantry to only cover the food, not the rent for the location or venue where the food is served, not the salaries for the staff who recruit the volunteers who serve the food, but that's actually not a good instinct because all of those expenses are equally essential to that food pantry's ability to execute against its mission of feeding hungry people. So don't put strings on your gift. If you trust the organization, trust that they'll know how to allocate resources to achieve their goals.
Grace Nicolette
Well, we often hear from donors who really want to vet nonprofits based on their administrative cost overhead ratio, that kind of thing. And we would counsel, that is not a great way to vet a nonprofit. To Phil's point, what is the right administrative cost, right? Like for Apple or for other businesses, we don't ask that question. And if we really do care about the strength and the sustainability of a nonprofit, things like paying good salaries and attracting talent and having a safe work environment are actually really important. so, you know, upfront, I would say to donors, ask good questions about financial management, the work, but do not rely on one particular overhead ratio.
And also don't rely on things like, I see sometimes these memes going on in social media of like, well, the CEO of this nonprofit only makes $13,000 a year, so we should pick them. And instead, think actually that's a red flag in my book. Makes me wonder, you know, does this person actually have the skills to do the job if they're not being fairly compensated for it? So, I would say those are some of the kind of things that we hear about that are sort of conventional wisdom that I think we want to make sure we say, you know, don't follow the conventional wisdom in those areas.
Laura Adams
What kind of trends are you all seeing in charitable giving, either good or bad? Is there anything that you're seeing as you've been in this space for a while, what's changing? Grace, let's start with you.
Grace Nicolette
Yeah, I mean, I think that the overall proportion of individuals who are giving is actually going down over time, right? Part of that is less, perhaps, involvement with religious communities, which have traditionally been a huge base of individual giving. Now, of course, the data shows that there are really big individual donors like Mackenzie Scott or Melinda French Gates, who are really kind of skewing that number, but overall, similar to certain trends that we see in the world with declines in trust and institutions, kind of a little bit of a fraying of our social fabric, there actually is a little bit less individual giving.
Meanwhile, I would say foundation giving is growing though, to kind of step into that space. So that's really interesting. And I think COVID itself was very transformational, at least on the institutional side of giving because, you know, people were really seeing how money needed to be moved faster. You know, communities actually are disproportionately affected by things like a pandemic. And so there's a lot more conversation during COVID and after COVID about, know, we really responded in this moment of crisis in our world. What did we learn from that? And how can we sustain some of those changes? Phil, I don't know if you want to add anything to that.
Phil Buchanan
I think I would just add that it's hard for me to distinguish between what are real trends and what I hope are trends, right? In terms of our data and research, so the real trends, I would echo what Grace said. We saw coming out of the pandemic, donors placing more trust in nonprofits, giving in a more unrestricted way, streamlining processes. We saw more focus on racial equity and on issues of equity, particularly in the aftermath of the racial justice reckoning in 2020.
Here's the part where I'm not sure if it's wishful thinking or whether it's really true. I see glimmers of hope that people respect and understand the vital role of nonprofits and the way in which that work is distinct more than they did maybe five or 10 years ago. I often think of nonprofit leaders as unsung heroes. I mean, these are some of the most talented folks leading a nonprofit takes everything it takes to lead an equivalent size business and a ton more. It's a harder job, not an easier job. And I see some anecdotes anyway of recognition of that. And I hope as a society, we can start to lift up those folks more because one of the concerning things we see also in our research is high levels of concern about burnout in nonprofits of staff and leaders, because it is really, really tough work day in and day out so often.
Laura Adams
Yeah, that's great. You mentioned Mackenzie Scott. You I would love to know what you guys think about her giving and some of the big names that we hear about. They seem to be doing incredible things. I'm just curious what you know about those kind of large-scale foundations and donors. I know you guys did a podcast about Mackenzie Scott in your Giving Done Right podcast. I think it's a really interesting show and I just love for you guys to kind of summarize what you talked about in that episode. Grace, let's start with you.
Grace Nicolette
Sure. We often say her giving in the last five years has been the single biggest kind of natural experiment in philanthropy in a very long time. I mean, you have someone who gave away billions in a very short amount of time with a very interesting way of doing it, right? So we ourselves as a nonprofit, we actually received a surprise Mackenzie Scott grant. And so, we kind of know firsthand just how transformational and shocking it was.
But basically, she has given away billions of dollars. She worked with a partner to do some of the vetting, but it was very different than kind of traditional foundation processes where people have to apply and there's a long process. I mean, she was the one who took on the research herself and then proactively reached out to the nonprofits to notify them. And then she said, you can spend it in the way that you think best. also, maybe in a few years, you can send us like a few paragraphs on how it went.
Again, it was just like, for those who are not in like foundation land, it's just like a very different approach to things. And we thought, you we should really study the impact of this on nonprofits, right? Like, because it is so different and, you know, we ourselves, we're not going to get another gift. And so we, you know, don't have skin in this game. And so maybe as, really robust research outfit, we should just go ahead and do this. And so in partnership with other funders, we have done a three year study. The last year will come out in the spring of 2025 around like, let's talk to the nonprofits who receive these gifts. What was it like for them? And, you it's interesting because as soon as the gift started happening, we were hearing from donors and other foundations, this is a terrible idea. She is gonna see that these nonprofits cannot handle these big gifts. There's gonna be all these like negative secondhand effects. And so we thought, you know what, let's study this, let's see, are there actually negative effects?
And you know, year one and year two, the answer is no, actually nonprofits are saying not only did they not experience widespread negative effects, that these gifts were actually completely transformational for them. I mean, some of the ways that people describe things, they're just like so surprising to us. It's like, you know, nobody's ever believed in my leadership before as a leader of color. And now I can actually fundraise even better because this was a, you know, like a vote of confidence. This transformed my organization. all of those things, think, were just so powerful to hear, like to Phil's earlier point, nonprofits are doing really great work on the front lines and they are so unsung. And I think there's a really powerful way in which her giving really made them be seen.
And if I could just share one lesson that I myself have taken away from her giving. And so of course, nobody can give like Mackenzie Scott, right? Like nobody has as much money as she does in terms of the giving and like the speed. And so me as like a normal everyday donor, you know, one lesson that I always like, I, one thing that I always wrestled with before with my own giving is this, like, I care about a lot of causes. Should I spread the money around or should I just pick a few causes that I really care about and give more to them?
And that was always something that I kind of went back and forth on in my mind. And actually seeing the data and the evidence from what nonprofits say they need has really shifted my view. Like I would say to donors, and this is something I've been trying to do myself, is like not to spread things around, but to really identify what are the few causes that I want to invest deeply in. Because the larger gifts actually do make more of a difference to nonprofits than like a ton of really tiny gifts.
Laura Adams
Yeah, that's super interesting. And I think if you are interested in something, whether it's the environment or politics or whatever it may be, you can go deep into that topic if you decide to give in one lane, if you will, versus kind of sprinkling it around. So yeah, I agree. That does kind of give you the opportunity to maybe just get more familiar with that space and then be a little bit more intentional and effective about it. Yeah, Phil, any of your thoughts on Mackenzie or anything else the big donors are doing?
Phil Buchanan
Well, I would agree completely with the lessons that we can take that Grace alluded to from Mackenzie Scott's giving. I mean, the scale, obviously, as she said, is not something any of us can replicate. She's given away, you know, 17 billion dollars plus in a few years. The median grant size in our most recent study was something like five and a half million dollars in a single grant. And with complete faith in the nonprofit to figure out what to do with it. And what they do with it is everything. They expand their program.
The single biggest thing they tell us is that their nonprofit is now serving more people. Expand their program, but they also invest in their staff, their capacity, deal with pay equity issues. And they put some aside typically for the long -term strengthening reserves so that their organization is strong going forward. So I think it's just been really interesting. There's critiques of her approach. It hasn't been very transparent. It's hard to figure out who to talk to if you feel like you run an organization that should have been funded but isn't. So there's lots to talk about. not saying nobody ever does it perfectly, but there is a lot to learn from her example.
And I think there is more broadly with her, Melinda French Gates, who Grace mentioned and others, a bit more humility we're seeing from donors who recognize, huh, I might not have all the answers, but these organizations that are doing great work every day in communities and have for years, they might have some of the answers and maybe we just need to give them the resources to pursue those answers. Not to say that donors can't bring ideas or that expertise isn't important, but there's also a lot of expertise in communities and in the people who we're trying to support or help.
Laura Adams
So let's bring it back to kind of the everyday donor. If somebody is thinking about getting started or thinking, you know, I've given a little bit in the past, but I would really like to be more intentional. I would really like to have a plan, I really want to identify what is my mission, what are my values and kind of create some sort of a plan, even if it's a modest plan, how should somebody get started? What do you think, Grace?
Grace Nicolette
Yeah, I mean, I think it's as simple as actually sitting down and writing down what are my giving values? What do I want to be giving to? How much money are we talking about? And what are the organizations that I'm starting with, right? I think that sometimes all this can just live in our heads and so therefore it kind of ping pong's around and it can be hard to make it concrete. It's very powerful writing it down. It might be even more powerful to talk about it with a community of friends or family members who might actually join you in what you're hoping to do. So there's really power in numbers there.
But as we said earlier, start somewhere and one other thing I wanted to add is like, sounds like, you in the example you give, people do want to get started. Sometimes there's even sort of mental barriers or kind of heart barriers for getting started. And, and for that, I would love to just say it's like, it's really a you get to, it's not you have to, right? Like there's so much joy and actually a lot of transformation on the other side of giving. We often think like, we're the ones with the funds. We're going to go in there and share our wealth and largesse with people who are deeply in need. But actually, like Phil said, these communities are rich in many other ways that maybe we ourselves are lacking in. And so I think as we get involved, we get more of a vision of just how awesome it is when there is a mutual sharing of resources, right? That's not just money, but time and lived experience, just richness that maybe we didn't even realize existed or that we needed ourselves. I see a lot of that happening with donors that they themselves get to be transformed. So I like to remind folks, this is a get to, it's not a have to. And like we said before, starting somewhere is very important and it is a journey. So find others to join you.
Laura Adams
Yeah, great advice. Phil, any words of advice for some first timers?
Phil Buchanan
The only thing I would add is that Grace and I in our interviews on our podcast have been able to talk to folks who are involved in family giving that has had profoundly positive effects on their intergenerational familial relationships, which is a little counterintuitive because I think societally, we always think of money as something that tears families apart.
You know, we all watch succession or at least I did. And we see, you know, these battles, we read about it in the business section about family businesses where folks are warring for control. But what we've seen is that resource, financial resources can be a source of connection and strengthening of familial relationships when the challenge is how do we share them and give them for good. Just start and you might have fun and learn a little in the process.
Laura Adams
Yeah, great. I will say another tip is to work with your accountant or a CPA if you have one about some effective strategies. Effective is in your name, so I'm sure you deal with this all the time, but folks can definitely be strategic. Certainly there are tax deductions available at certain limits, but up to certain thresholds, and it depends on what you're giving. Folks could also give appreciated assets to get a little bit more bang for the buck, getting those having not having any capital gains on some long term appreciation and also getting to deduct those donations can be really nice.
So we're not going to dive too deep here into the tax ramifications and benefits of giving, but just to say there are a lot of benefits out there for giving. And so you want to seek professional advice and just making sure you're doing it as effectively as possible because getting a little bit more from that gift, especially if you're not giving a huge amount of money, getting as much as you can from that gift maybe could make a big difference for somebody who's a beginner or who's really stretching themselves a little bit to make a donation.
So I would encourage folks, and if you have a lot more money, thinking about estate planning, thinking about really being a little bit more strategic that could be through a giving annuity or giving charitable trust. There are all kinds of advanced and more sophisticated ways to give when you have a lot more money. But I would think for most people, really just getting started and kind of getting your feet wet and understanding the, maybe the tax benefits you could get this year by, if you do make a donation by the end of the year could be a great place to start. And I'm curious if either of you have any other advice in terms of just the financials of giving.
Grace Nicolette
Yeah, absolutely. I think you hit the nail on the head. Thinking about how it all fits together with your finances is really important. We often talk to accountants and other financial advisors who say, you know, I wish I had more time to talk to my clients about their financial picture holistically, right? Like knowing that we are not just folks who are making money and managing assets, but there might be kind of values that we want to pass down or giving that we want to involve our family in.
And we need a lot of really thoughtful advisors who really want to have that conversation. And so I would say, if you haven't had that conversation with your advisor or accountant before, maybe bring it up. And if it's not their strength, maybe you find someone for which they can take that more holistic view if that matters to you.
But yeah, for me personally, we've certainly had to keep abreast of the kind of tax policy to make sure, you know, we want to be smart because we can then maximize how much we give, right, and be really clear about not just our goals, but also how we are executing the strategies for those goals.
Laura Adams
Great. Any thoughts, Phil?
Phil Buchanan
I agree with what you both said.
Laura Adams
Awesome. So if somebody is thinking about being a little bit more effective in their giving and they want to learn more, where do you all recommend they go for resources? Where can people go to learn more and just get educated about giving in general?
Phil Buchanan
There are a ton of good resources out there. They can certainly go to CEP.org, which is Center for Effective Philanthropy website where Grace and I work and they can also listen to our podcast, Giving Done Right, which is available anywhere that folks get podcasts, but there's so many other organizations. So the National Center for Family Philanthropy, for example, has tremendous resources for those who are giving as a family. I won't go on and on because I'm afraid of leaving some out. So maybe I'll leave it there, Grace, unless you have other resources you think we should highlight.
Grace Nicolette
Yeah, I do want to highlight, maybe Phil is too modest to bring this up, but he does have a book called Giving Done Right that was actually preceded our podcast. I mean, it is a fantastic resource. It's been so helpful for me. There are many donors around the country and even in like philanthropy courses who actually use it as a guide for learning how to give well. It's such a great combination of like the brass tacks of how to do it and think about it, but also like really inspiring stories. And so, yeah, so the book Giving Done Right, would say, is a great place to also start.
And then like Phil said, you know, we're probably biased, but our podcast, I think we really do try to have a mix of like the really practical as well as just people where you're like, I never knew this person existed. And I feel so inspired actually after hearing their story.
Laura Adams
That's wonderful. Phil, if there's one thing that readers of your book maybe say to you that they learned or some big takeaway that they got from the book. You know, is there something that that sticks out?
Phil Buchanan
Yeah, I mean, I think one theme of the book is giving is not like investing and nonprofits are not like businesses in some really important ways that connect to issues like strategy and performance assessment. That would be one thing. I think another theme would just be humility that the most effective donors approach giving with humility.
And that sounds like almost just a cliche, but there's a lot underneath that that folks need to understand. And I'll just leave it there, I guess.
Laura Adams
Terrific. Thank you so much for coming on the show. I know listeners will love to check out the Giving Done Right podcast and your book to kind of go a little bit deeper in this. And, know, as you said, Grace, this is a journey and if you're just beginning this journey, that's okay. And if you're somebody that's been giving for decades and you're more sophisticated, that's fantastic too. But I guess the point is there are resources out there for everyone, no matter your goals, no matter your level, no matter your income, no matter your net worth, whatever it is, there is a way to give back and do it effectively.
So I think you guys are just amazing for what you do. And I hope people will check out all of the great resources you have.
Phil Buchanan
Thank you, Laura.
Grace Nicolette
Thank you, Laura.
That's all for now. I'll talk to you soon. Until then, here's to living a richer life!
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