956. Laura interviews Thomas Nitzsche with Money Management International (MMI), a nonprofit dedicated to debt solutions.
956. Laura interviews Thomas Nitzsche with Money Management International (MMI), a nonprofit dedicated to debt solutions.
Thomas Nitzsche - Money Management International (MMI),
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Hey friends, welcome back to episode 956 of the Money Girl Podcast! I'm Laura Adams, an award-winning author, on-camera spokesperson, female money speaker, founder of The Money Stack, a Substack newsletter, and host of Money Girl with over 44 million downloads. You can always connect and learn how to work with me at LauraDAdams.com.
Having manageable debt can be part of a healthy financial life. But if you’ve ever felt stressed or overwhelmed by debt, you’re not alone. Whether you caused a bad debt problem or it resulted from hardships entirely beyond your control, help is available.
Today, I hope to demystify the world of credit counseling and debt solutions with my terrific guest, Thomas Nitzsche. Thomas is the Vice President of Public Relations at Money Management International (MMI), a nonprofit with over 60 years of experience providing financial counseling.
MMI’s advice and education encompass debt repayment options, credit counseling, bankruptcy, natural disaster recovery, home buying, reverse mortgages, student loans, and other financial issues. You can learn more at MoneyManagement.org.
Thomas has vast financial experience, including financial counseling during the Great Recession. He supported thousands of individuals facing mortgage and debt hardships, offering proven strategies for improving their financial lives. Now, he’s committed to reducing stigma around debt and sharing MMI’s mission to help clients overcome debt challenges with education, tools, and support.
We had a great conversation discussing the following:
So here's my interview with Thomas.
LAURA ADAMS
Thomas, I am so excited to have you on the Money Girl Podcast. I really appreciate you being here.
THOMAS NITZSCHE
Yeah, thanks for having me.
LAURA ADAMS
This is a really important conversation because I know a lot of people are struggling with debt. Even if you don't have a ton of debt, in a lot of cases, it can really cause stress in your life. So, talking about solutions is really important to me and I’m so glad you're here.
We're going to talk about all kinds of ways to help people really deal with their debt in a way that's right for them. So, to start, I'd love for you to introduce yourself and tell me a little bit about your company, Money Management International.
THOMAS NITZSCHE
Sure. So I'm with MMI. We're one of the oldest and largest nonprofit credit counseling agencies in the U.S. We have been around in one form or another since 1958, almost as long as credit cards themselves. I came to the organization during the Great Recession. I had been laid off from a global financial services company and actually started as a counselor during the Great Recession, helping people who were going through similar situations to myself.
I had been laid off and then became underemployed–I had just bought a house the year before, was managing credit card debt, student loan debt, auto debt, and home debt. And when you kind of have the legs cut out from under you, when you lose a job, that can be really scary. So I was counseling people through the Great Recession, moved into the marketing team in 2011, where I've been ever since, primarily doing media relations and PR related work.
LAURA ADAMS
It's impressive that you've got that long history working with consumers.
THOMAS NITZSCHE
Yeah, you know, our average counselor's tenure is 13 years, which in a, you know, a primarily call center-based environment, is a long time. You know, folks can really rest assured when they work with our counselors that they're working with somebody who typically has a lot of experience. And a question we hear a lot from people is like, “Am I the worst you've ever seen?”
And people are really, you know, at a point of a lot of anxiety and a lot of worry and concern and trying to figure out what their options are. And so, you know, our counselors first and foremost are there to be empathetic and to understand, listen to what you're going through, understand what your goals are, understand what your challenges are, and then try to start to put together an action plan, put together a budget, understand, you know, the challenges that you're working with, and try to uncover some solutions to help you move past and achieve those goals.
You know, most people come to us because of some sort of payment shock or shock in their lives, something like I did, like a layoff or a medical issue or, you know, a separation or divorce. So it can be a really traumatic time when we're connecting with folks, but what we try to do is instill a sense of calm and a sense that, you know, there is life after this, and every financial problem has a solution, and we're going to help you find it.
LAURA ADAMS
I love that. I think whenever we're dealing with financial hardships, dwelling in the problem never helps us get better. I always tell people not to worry alone if they have a money issue.
Get help from a professional who can kind of worry with you, help you share the burden, and come up with solutions rather than just feeling depressed and upset in the day-to-day hardship that you're going through. Getting a bigger perspective on it always helps.
THOMAS NITZSCHE
Yeah, and it's that collective knowledge, right? Like, if you're going through something like that, it may be the first time that you're experiencing those sorts of things. So, if you can lean on somebody who has some experience, be it personal, a friend, a family member, or a professional who has worked with other people in that situation, that's a really great thing.
And even if you're not ready to talk to somebody, we see this a lot among the clients we counsel. Sometimes they have not talked even to their spouse about some of their challenges. If you're not ready to talk to somebody, there are places you can go, like Reddit and ChatGPT to anonymously open up about these challenges and start to find solutions.
Even if you're not yet ready to talk to another person about it, there are still places you can turn to get support anonymously, because we find that that's a real barrier to people. The stigma and shame of financial instability or debt can really isolate people. And so, whenever I can, I try just to make sure people understand that there are confidential places you can turn to start to unload some of that financial baggage.
LAURA ADAMS
Yeah, that's really important. You mentioned some of the mistakes that you see. You've been in this field a long time. What would you say are some of the most common mistakes that you see people making when it comes to debt? In addition to not communicating about it or admitting it to themselves or their family members, what are some other common mistakes?
THOMAS NITZSCHE
Yeah, I think some of the biggest ones are lack of action or just inaction, sort of hoping that it's just going to get better without really doing anything differently. That’s a really big one. We see people limp along with a high level of debt for a very long period of time, sometimes decades, before finally reaching a breaking point and reaching out for help.
And that's just really heartbreaking because, you know, it's like, had I just been able to talk to you a few years sooner, we could have gotten to work on this, but I think that's one of the biggest. Another is just sort of a lack of understanding of what debt resolution options are available to them.
We did a survey a few years ago that found that about three-fourths of Americans didn't know that they can work with their creditors to get a lower interest rate on their accounts, whether they're working with them directly or through a nonprofit like MMI, there's a tremendous lack of awareness and people tend to have a very black and white view of their debt. It's either I can afford to do this all on my own and I'm gonna do it, pull myself up by the bootstraps or I'm gonna have to declare bankruptcy.
There's a very black and white sort of thinking when people are up against a debt challenge and there's a lot of things in between that. There's a lot of gray there to be explored. Can you work with creditors directly? Can you work through a nonprofit for a debt management program to get the interest rates down? Can you do a debt settlement? There's a lot of things to explore. And so we try to, first and foremost, educate clients as to what their options are and understand where they're at, financial snapshot of where they're at right now and how to get where they want to be and understand what their goals are and work towards those goals.
LAURA ADAMS
Have you ever talked to consumers and realized maybe they're just not right for a debt solution plan? Maybe the debt that they have is a little bit more manageable than they perhaps even perceive it to be? In other words, what's the point where somebody really can benefit from a debt management solution?
THOMAS NITZSCHE
Yeah, sure. So, absolutely. So, you know, only about one in three clients, or so, engage with us long-term in a debt management plan or debt resolution plan. The other, you know, the other clients, we are simply helping them create a budget or referring them to other resources, advising them on how to work with their creditor directly, or referring them to see a bankruptcy attorney.
So, you know, there is a full spectrum of the kind of support people might need. It certainly is not a one-size-fits-all approach in the solutions that are available and that are offered to folks. you know, I would say if you're feeling overwhelmed, if you are only making minimum payments, if you have a lot of high interest credit card debt especially, and you just feel like you're not able to make headway on that, you know, most of your payment is going towards interest rather than principal, and you just can't seem to afford to make more than the minimum payments, that's definitely a good time to reach out and especially before it starts to go past due.
Because when you start to miss payments is when your credit is more adversely impacted and that can hurt you in other ways down the road. So we always want to try to help people before they reach a status of being behind other payments or delinquent. That said, even if they find themselves in that situation, there are still things we can do to help them get back on track.
If it's less than three months past due, we can perhaps rehabilitate those accounts, get them in a debt manager program, get the interest rates down, get back on track, get the accounts re-aged, get them reporting positively on the credit report again. If they're more than that and they have more charged off accounts that are in collections in 34 states now, we can help them with a debt resolution plan or what is our take on a settlement where you can resolve the debt for less than the principal balance that's actually owed usually about 50%.
So, you know, it really depends upon where the person is at in that moment in time. Their ability to repay the debt, obviously, is a huge factor. And then obviously what their goals are and what their life situation is, you know. There's a lot of factors that go into determining what is the best path forward. So that's really where our counselors come in and try to sort all that out and help folks understand what their options are and highlight the one that they think is best for them.
LAURA ADAMS
Thomas, can we take a step back and maybe just define for folks who are unfamiliar with some of the terminology here, what exactly is a debt management plan? We've also talked about a debt resolution plan. What are the differences?
THOMAS NITZSCHE
Sure. So a debt management plan is a structured repayment where a nonprofit like MMI works as an intermediary between you and your creditors to get the interest rates down and get you on a debt repayment plan that typically lasts about four years. On average, it reduces the interest rates down to around 7%. And what it does essentially is enables more of your payment to go towards principal rather than interest so that you can start to see a light at the end of the tunnel, get that debt paid down within a reasonable amount of time.
On average, people are coming to us now with about $30,000 in unsecured debt, which when you're talking at 20, 25, even 29% interest rate, that can get really challenging to pay that much debt down if your budget's already strapped. The cost of living has gone up, and inflation's been a problem the past few years. More of people's income is going towards their housing expenses, especially.
So it can be really challenging to make enough room in your budget to aggressively pay debt down when you have that much credit card debt. So basically, a debt management program is a structured way of repaying that back in cooperation with your creditors so that you're able to see headway, achieve that goal of becoming debt-free. And along the way, our average client improves their credit score by about 82 points from start to finish.
So it's a very effective way of managing your debt in a very safe manner. The accounts that are included do close, but for people who are in a lot of debt, typically, they're already maxed out. There's not much credit limit left on them anyway, so that's typically not an issue. A debt resolution plan is essentially a settlement. So that means that the accounts are typically already in collections or they should already be in collections in order to settle the debt.
And what we're working towards is just resolving the debt before it reaches a legal status, before they try to go after a lien or a garnishment or something like that. And the way a settlement works is you pay the funds towards a settlement, saving up enough so that you're able to settle for less than what is owed, typically around 50%.
So each product can be effective for the right type of consumer, but we don't recommend that folks intentionally fall past due in order to achieve a settlement because it's very hard on your credit. It is risky. There can be tax implications. You can get a 1099 at the end of the year for amounts that are forgiven. So it's certainly not the solution of first choice.
We would much rather work with somebody earlier in the process, try to get them on a debt management plan, or work with their creditors directly to get that resolved before it reaches a charged-off status, is what it means when it's been sold to a third-party collection agency.
But by being sold to a third-party collection agency, it does open up the possibility of settling it for less than what you owe. So that's the primary difference is that the debt management program, we're working to negotiate and reduce the interest rate. And in a debt resolution plan, we're working to reduce the principal.
LAURA ADAMS
Would you say that the debt resolution plan has any negatives? Is somebody still able to take advantage of something like a consolidation loan if they enter into a plan?
THOMAS NITZSCHE
Sure. So typically at the point that people turn to us for either a debt management plan or a debt resolution plan, those other sort of loan product options are typically off the table because they've already experienced enough credit damage that they're unable to secure a loan or a balance transfer.
The average client that comes to us for a debt management plan or a debt resolution plan has a credit score that's typically in the high 500s, low 600s, which is typically too low to be approved for a debt consolidation loan or a balance transfer. So these products, the debt management plan and a debt resolution plan are designed to assist people who can no longer get approved for a loan or a balance transfer. But they do have, especially a debt management plan, does have a very competitive average rate compared to a debt consolidation loan. The average interest rate on a debt management plan, we get interest rates reduced to around 7%, which, if you shop loans lately, it can be very difficult to find a loan for that amount.
And that amount does not change based on what's going on with the market. in other words, creditors already have set up concessions that they will give people who go through a nonprofit credit counselor like MMI to reduce the rate. And that rate doesn't change based on what's going on in the market. That is just a fixed rate that they offer folks who go through credit counseling and go through a debt management plan.
So it can be a great option for somebody who is sort of locked out of the loan option because of their credit score. Typically the people we're working with have a lot of unsecured debt that has negatively impacted their debt to income ratio, their debt to available credit ratio, and they may have had some missed payments. So that obviously negatively impacts your credit.
So we're working with people and sometimes they will actually be referred to us by their bank or their credit union who says, sorry, we can't approve you, but why don't you talk to MMI and see if they can help you through a debt management plan to get this paid off. So that's at the point that a lot of folks are referred to us.
LAURA ADAMS
Do you think there are any situations where a consumer might be able to negotiate lower interest rates on their own or do you all really carry weight with those merchants that allow you to negotiate a little bit more aggressively?
THOMAS NITZSCHE
Yeah, absolutely. You make a really good point. There was a lending tree study that came out a couple years ago that found that about three in four consumers who asked their creditor for a lower interest rate got it, and that on average, they shaved off six percentage points, which if you're dealing with high interest credit card debt, that's no small amount when you do the math on that over a long period of time. So yeah, absolutely. Consumers can work with their creditors directly in many cases. Some creditors, however,
What they will do is they'll pull your credit report to see exactly what's going on, right? They have access to your credit report. You give them permission to do that when you take out a loan with them. They can do that retroactively in the future. what they will often do though is they'll see that, you don't just owe us, you also owe three or four or eight other creditors. So sometimes what they'll say is, hey, we can help you with this one account, but you really need broader help with all these accounts that we can't help you with because they're with a different lender.
So why don't you talk to MMI because they can help you with all your accounts and lump those all into one payment, work with all the creditors directly. Some consumers also feel the process really overwhelming. You know, if you've got eight, nine, 10 different creditors, that's a lot of phone calls to make and a lot of different payment dates to juggle and making sure you're current on everything. so a lot of consumers feel like they just really need the support in dealing with all the creditors just from a logistic standpoint. Like they have so many creditors
that it becomes a lot for them to juggle on their own.
But to answer your question, yes, you can typically work with your creditor directly and try to get either what's called a financial hardship plan or just a courtesy reduction of your interest rate. One way or another, they will typically reduce the interest rates on existing lines of credit. And it's not a bad idea to contact them directly, see what they will offer you, and then talk to a counselor and see what they'll offer through a credit counseling agency. It doesn't cost anything but your time.
So then you can compare what is being offered and go with the one that makes best sense for you. So there's certainly, you know, it's certainly a good idea to shop around and see what options are available and compare and do the math.
LAURA ADAMS
I do think there's a misconception that you have to be delinquent on debt in order to benefit from any kind of a debt solution. You mentioned that earlier that that's not the case, but can you just reiterate that and explain that in a little bit more clarity for folks who are thinking, I've got to wait and just not pay my credit card bill for multiple months in order to qualify.
THOMAS NITZSCHE
Right. So no, absolutely. There are options available for people who are still current or who have just started to miss payments if they're worried about missing their next payment. You know, we talk a lot of people that are like, I just don't know how I'm going to make this work next month. Like I just made the payments this month, but I can see now that this just is not sustainable. It's not going to happen next month. So yes, debt management plans will typically work when the accounts are still current or just a little bit behind.
One of the best things about a debt management plan is that the accounts will often re-age, meaning that they will bring the account current even if you're unable to make up a missed payment. So as long as you're less than, three or four payments past due, it's a really good time to reach out, see if you can get back on track through a debt management plan because you typically don't have to make up the missed payments.
Most creditors will do what they call a re-age. That just means bring the account current without making up the missed payments. nd they put it at the end of the loan, essentially. However, with a debt resolution plan, that is a settlement. So in a settlement, yes, the accounts do need to be in a collection status or a past due status in order for the creditor to even consider a settlement. And it sort of makes sense, right? Because if you're paying every month, even if you're only making the minimum payment, why should a creditor settle for less than what you owe if you're still making your payments?
So a debt resolution plan is really intended for folks who have already through circumstances, through life circumstances, have already had to miss payments and they're already in a collection status or what we call charged off to a third party collection agency. That is when a debt resolution plan or a settlement is appropriate.
A debt management plan is most effective when the accounts are still with the original creditor. They're either current or they're just one, two, maybe three missed payments past due. We can get that rehabilitated, get it set up on a debt management plan to get those accounts reporting favorably on your credit bureau report again and keep you from reaching a charged off status.
So that's really the critical difference between the two solutions is the status of the debt and obviously also the consumer's ability to repay, right? Sometimes a debt management plan payment simply isn't sustainable. not, it just, we aren't able to reduce the payment enough, even though we're able to get the interest rate way down, we can't get the monthly payment low enough to fit within a consumer's budget. So in those cases, sometimes consumers are left with no choice but to either let those accounts charge off or seek legal advice and to see if they're a bankruptcy candidate. So that's the primary difference between the two.
LAURA ADAMS
Yeah, that's great. And for bankruptcy, when do you think that is, you know, a good option and talk a little bit about just the, you know, the negative consequences of that as far as credit goes?
THOMAS NITZSCHE
Sure. So yeah, there's a lot of stigma around bankruptcy and you know, it's called bankruptcy protection for a reason, right? It's there to protect consumers when they find themselves just way over their heads and just there's just no way that's going to be possible for them to repay the debt. Depending on the consumer situation, how many, how much assets they have depends upon what chapter they can file, whether it's seven or 13. Obviously the negative side of a bankruptcy is it does show on your credit report for seven years.
So, you know, it can be very difficult to obtain new lines of credit during that time. And you have to do a lot of extra work to get your credit rebuilt, right? You might need to open a secured credit card or a credit builder loan and anything that you affirmed in the bankruptcy that you decided to keep like a home or an automobile. You need to make sure you make extra close, extra close attention to those payments. Make sure you're making those payments on time so that that helps rebuild your credit.
But the primary thing really is just how long it shows on your credit report and the difficulty it would be to get new lines of credit while that's being reported. But in some cases, it simply is the best option for folks. If they find themselves at a point where they're being sued, they're getting garnished, they have liens against property, that sort of thing, it probably is time to seek legal advice and see what options you have.
That typically is for an advanced stage of delinquency and it may just be time to declare chapter seven or 13 and get a fresh start. So, it really depends just upon where you're at, what assets you have, your ability to repay, the type and status of the debt you have. There's a lot of different factors that go into deciding what the best option is, but that's why we exist to help people weed through that and figure out a path forward.
LAURA ADAMS
Thomas, for someone who's listening, who's thinking, yeah, I probably could benefit from talking to MMI about some type of debt solution, how do they get started? And what does that process look like? How long does it typically take to see some improvement in your financial life? I know this is going to vary a lot, but just perhaps on average.
THOMAS NITZSCHE
Sure, yeah, you know, it's true. It really does depend on the individual and the circumstances that are going on in your life. you know, the easiest way to get started is at MoneyManagement.org. We have a fully online counseling platform where people can import their credit report and we can see what's going on there, import their financial information. It's all secure, confidential. That's the easiest way to get started.
Once you do that, counselor will connect with you either by email or by phone, talk about what they see and what options they have that are best suited to your situation. And then from there, it really depends upon what the outcome of that counseling session is. If you're recommended a debt management program, they'll send some paperwork for that and explain that process, get started and send the proposals out to the creditors.
If it's debt resolution plan, same sort of thing, they'll give a quote for how long they think it'll take and what you can expect as far as a settlement. And then from there, it really just depends upon how much debt you had and what the concessions that the creditors were willing to give as far as how long it takes.
For a debt management plan, the average client is with us for about four years from
start to finish. There aren't any sort prepayment penalties though. So if your situation changes and you get a windfall or a new job or things otherwise improve, you can always pay it off sooner. There's no downside to doing that. A debt resolution plan typically doesn't last quite as long. It's typically more like two to three years. Debt resolution plan might last because it obviously is settling for less than what was owed. So there's less that has to be paid towards that debt. But yeah, it typically is a multi-year process if you're going through either a debt management plan or a debt resolution plan.
And I always say that the biggest thing is just to remain in contact with your counselor or with the support team throughout the process because sometimes things change for better or for worse. And so it's important to have open line of communication with both your counselor and your creditors to make sure that any of those bumps are able to be navigated. Sometimes there might be a month where you can't make a full payment, for example.
And it's important to have a conversation. What should I do? Should I make at least a partial payment? And that's an important conversation to have because every creditor is a little bit different as far as how forgiving they are with missed payments and that sort of thing. So the counselor might say, hey, you need to make a payment at least to cover this one. The other ones I think will be okay, but let's try to make a payment at least to this one and keep you on track. So I think communication is just a really key aspect of the whole process when you're on a debt management plan or debt resolution plan.
LAURA ADAMS
Yeah, and I would think having that support to bounce some of these ideas and decisions off of could be really helpful for folks who are feeling a little panicked.
THOMAS NITZSCHE
Oh yeah, absolutely. People describe it as having somebody on my team, right? Like, I have somebody that I know is pulling for me and wanting me to succeed and is gonna give me advice if I come up against something that is an unexpected challenge. You know, life happens. It's inevitable. Four years is a long time, and things can happen along the way.
But you know, we are very proud that about 80 % of the folks who start with us successfully finish a debt management plan. And along the way, they pay off on average about $24,000 in debt and improve their credit score about 82 points from start to finish. we're really proud of those accomplishments and proud that we can be a part of that journey and financial success. It's really rewarding when they come back at the end and we can celebrate that success with them.
LAURA ADAMS
For folks who are looking to speak to a counselor, is there a fee? How does your compensation work?
THOMAS NITZSCHE
Sure, so there's never any fee for consultations. So the counseling process is completely free. It'll only cost your time. So you can either go online at MoneyManagement.org or give us a call and the counselor will work with you and your schedule too. It's important to carve out enough time to make it a productive conversation. You usually want to have an hour or so to be able to pull together all your financial documents and discuss that with the counselor and create a plan.
And from there, if you're recommended a debt management plan or a debt resolution plan, there are some nominal fees that go along with the debt management plan. The average monthly fee is about $25. It varies from state to state, but the average is about $25 a month. But it's obviously offset with interest savings.
On average, our clients are reducing their interest rates from around 28 % down to 7%. So there's a tremendous savings in what we're able to achieve for our clients and interest savings.
In a debt resolution plan, many states have a flat 15 % fee for the debt resolution plan. Some do vary by state. We're active now in about 34 states and they do vary by state, but the counselor will discuss that with you all up front as far as any fees based on your individual situation in the state you live in.
LAURA ADAMS
Thomas, this has been really great information. Is there anything else as we kind of wrap up that you think listeners should know about dealing with debt or contacting MMI? know, anything else that might be helpful?
THOMAS NITZSCHE
Yeah, I think, you know, we just have found that the shame and stigma around debt really keeps people from finding solutions and educating themselves as to what options are available. So we just really encourage listeners to, if you're struggling with that, to really try to push past that.
And if you're not ready to talk to somebody, like I said earlier, there are places you can go to to start to gather information and advice from people who have gone through similar situations and you can do that anonymously. The debt-free community on Reddit is really great. ChatGPT can be a great thought partner as you start to go through some of these things and lay out some options that are available to you. And then, other than that, think just understanding that there is hope and there is help. There are organizations out there that are there to help you through this process.
But at the same time, you do need to do your due diligence and make sure you're working with an organization that is legitimate. Unfortunately, as delinquencies and debt has risen nationally, we see more scammers popping up. So you do want to protect yourself, make sure you're doing your research and looking for feedback from other consumers who have used the organization and make sure that they are accredited and in good standing with the Better Business Bureau and the Attorney General and all that stuff before you engage with any financial company for assistance with debt.
Because it's really heartbreaking when people come to us for second opinion and they've been defrauded or they didn't understand that they were working with a settlement company and all their accounts are now charged off and they didn't understand how that process worked. So you really want to thoroughly understand who you're working with and the services that they provide so that you're not surprised.
Also, a couple of interesting trends have emerged over the past couple of years. We're seeing a lot more younger consumers. Millennials make up almost half of the clients we serve now. If you add in Gen Z, it's over half our younger consumers, adults under 44. And that really is a change from the past. We typically served an older clientele.
And so I think it's really telling the unique financial stressors that younger generations are under now with cost of living. Obviously student loans have come back online now.
We've seen that more of people's income is going towards housing expenses, both the actual rent and mortgage payment as well as those ancillary things like taxes, insurance, utilities, all the costs that go along with a home.
And then also we've seen an increase in the number of clients that are contacting us with at least one charged-off debt. About one in five clients comes to us now with at least one account that's in a collection status. And that dollar amount, the average amount that's in collections is about $11,000. The amount has increased about 30 % over the last five years. So people seem to be coming to us with greater financial distress. They're coming to us with higher levels of debt.
The average client now has well over $30,000 in unsecured debt. And that despite the average income also being up, their average monthly budget deficit, so the amount that they have at the end of the month after they pay all their expenses, has also been increasing. So it's a really challenging time for a lot of consumers right now. So I think now more than ever, it's good for people to be aware that there are services and solutions and products and nonprofits out there to help them navigate this as they go through this tough time.
LAURA ADAMS
Yeah, it's really critical that folks reach out, get help, don't sit in any distress that you may have alone. Understand that there are options out there. As you mentioned, there’s everything from negotiating on your own all the way up to bankruptcy. There's a huge spectrum of options in between DIY all the way up to maybe the nuclear option, you might think of bankruptcy as that nuclear option, there are options in the middle.
And so if you're not aware of that and you don't even know that there are places to go to seek help, it's going to be difficult. So that education is the first piece. So if you have any types of debt challenges or maybe you know somebody like a loved one in your life, friends or family who are struggling and you don't know how to help them, this might be an option, giving them this resource. MMI can be a valuable resource, as Thomas said, even just getting a free conversation with a counselor could really put you on the right path.
So I want to thank you so much, Thomas, for all of this great information. As we wrap up, where should listeners go to learn more or use any of the resources that you have available?
THOMAS NITZSCHE
Sure, So MoneyManagement.org is the best place to get started. You can start online a counseling session online or you can call us from there. We also have our own podcast there as well. Lots of great success stories, lots of great data, lots of great articles, blogs, a lot of great resources there on MoneyManagement.org, but that is the best way to get connected.
LAURA ADAMS
Fantastic, thank you so much for being here and sharing all this great information. I know it's gonna help a lot of people!
THOMAS NITZSCHE
Thanks so much, appreciate you having us on.
LAURA ADAMS
A big thank you to Thomas for sharing his expertise with us.
That's all for now. I'll talk to you soon. Until then, here's to living a richer life!
Money Girl is a Quick and Dirty Tips podcast, and I want to thank our fantastic team! Steve Riekeberg audio-engineers the show. Holly Hutchings is our director of podcasts, Morgan Christianson is our advertising operations specialist, Rebekah Sebastian is our marketing and publicity manager, and Nathaniel Hoopes is our marketing contractor.