Laura interviews John Lanza, an author and creator who’s on a mission to empower kids and families to have more financial wellness and lead fulfilling lives.
Laura interviews John Lanza, an author and creator who’s on a mission to empower kids and families to have more financial wellness and lead fulfilling lives.
Money Girl is hosted by Laura Adams. A transcript is available at Simplecast.
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Hey friends, welcome back to episode 908 of the Money Girl Podcast! I'm Laura Adams, an award-winning author, on-camera spokesperson, female money speaker, founder of The Money Stack, a Substack newsletter, and host of Money Girl with over 43 million downloads. You can always connect with me and learn more at LauraDAdams.com.
Today, I’m excited to be joined by a special guest and new friend, John Lanza. He creates engaging and educational products that help parents raise money-smart kids.
John wrote an award-winning book called The Art of Allowance: A Short, Practical Guide to Raising Money-Smart, Money-Empowered Kids, which is for parents. He’s also written excellent books for kids. John created The Art of Allowance podcast and The Art of Allowance Project, a comprehensive financial education program for credit unions nationwide.
John’s work has been featured in The Wall Street Journal, The New York Times, NPR, and other media outlets. He’s also a certified credit union financial counselor, writes a newsletter, and speaks at conferences, workshops, and events. His mission is to empower kids and families to achieve financial wellness and lead fulfilling lives.
As you’ll hear in today’s interview, John and I talk about:
So here's my interview with John Lanza!
Laura Adams
John, welcome to the Money Girl Podcast. I'm so glad to have you.
John Lanza
Thank you, Laura. I'm excited to be here.
Laura Adams
Let’s start out with you telling us a little bit about your background. How did you get into the whole financial literacy thing? It's kind of a niche of its own and people get there in a lot of different ways. So, I'm curious about your story.
John Lanza
Well, it was the proverbial scratching of the itch. So, my wife and I had our first kid and really when she was six months old, we were talking about what we wanted for her. And very quickly, we kind of aligned on this idea of Money Smarts. We knew we wanted to raise her Money Smart and then we have a second daughter, but it all started with the first one.
My inclination, because I actually came from animation and media, was first, well, let's just get them excited about it. Like there's got to be a way that we can get kids excited about money because most of the media is designed to get kids excited about spending. So, what if we could get kids excited about not just spending, but spending smart, sharing, or charitable giving or saving and that in fact became the Money Mammals mantra. They sing, “We'll share and save and spend smart too.”
And so that was the way that we thought about it. And I just naturally thought, okay, well, if this is something I'm interested in or we're interested in for our kids, I bet you a lot of other parents are kind of thinking about this same thing. And one of the things I've discovered is if parents aren't thinking about it, as soon as they see something about it, they realize, yeah, that's something else I need to do. Of course, the parent to-do list is very long. So, there's a lot that you have to check off. And we try to help them address this area of raising money-smart kids.
Laura Adams
You came from an illustration or animation background. Did that sort of guide you in terms of like the visual, you know, how you wanted to present these concepts to kids?
John Lanza
Yeah, it totally did because I worked with some incredible people, like incredible artists. I mean, way better artists. But I always wanted to create my own show. And so, when this idea presented itself, I just thought to myself, thought, this is something that I think we have an opportunity to do something really interesting. And it was funny because I had this character, Joe the Monkey, who is the star of the money mammals, but he was just this kind of notion of this kind of every monkey who would just kind of hang around the house. There was no story behind him. But I always liked the idea of having a monkey as the center of the story.
And so he became Joe the Monkey and the Money Mammals. And they started singing about these money-smart ideas. And that's really kind of how it began, it was that idea. And then I reached out to my brother who's a terrific songwriter because I wanted to make sure that the songs were something that I would love for years because I remember an old boss of mine said, if you're going to develop an idea, be prepared to be in love with it for at least a decade because it's going to take a long time for that thing to kind of take hold and you better like everything about it.
Laura Adams
Yeah, great advice for sure. Like a songwriter, a singer, they don't want to sing about a song forever in every concert that they really hate. So yeah, wise advice. So, tell me about the products that you created for Joe the Monkey. What form did that take?
John Lanza
Well, it started with the video. So, it started with saving money is fun and the video kind of kicked everything off. So that was this idea of just really using music and visuals to get kids excited about the sharing and the saving and the spending smart. And one of the really exciting parts of this is that we then started working with credit unions to get the message out because they liked the idea.
And we started to create this kind of ecosystem around the Money Mammals. It's called the Money Mammals Saving Money is Fun Kids Club. And then I kind of realized one of my dreams, which is to write a kids book. So, I wrote the first kids book and each of the books is based on one of those mantra ideas. So, the first one was about saving for a goal. The next one was about spending, about sharing and charitable giving. And then the third one is about spending smart.
And so I got to write three kids books. And so now we have material for the visual learner. We had material for the people, you know, the parents who want to read to their kids at night, which is something I was doing with my kids. And then we created materials so we could bring those into the classroom, reading guides and teaching guides. And it really became something pretty substantial in terms of making an impact for lots of kids and lots of families to help them learn the basics.
And one of the things we focus on are the basics, like making sure that setting and saving for goals is important, distinguishing between needs and wants, and making smart money choices. And those are like the three core money smart skills that we focus on so that it never becomes too overwhelming.
Laura Adams
That's great, and so the credit union partnership, how did that start? What was the meaning behind aligning yourself with credit unions?
John Lanza
Well, you know, it's funny, I'll give you the real story. I don't know if I've shared the full story. So, this is a number of years ago, I shared that I was going to go on a tour with the Money Mammals, a live tour. Okay. And we had an organization, it was an organization up in Eureka, California, they wanted to have us come and do this live show.
We announced the tour, but didn't really have any tour dates. And then people started to be like, I would like to have this. I would like to bring this to our community. And one of the people that was interested in that was a credit union in Oregon. And this woman, Carrie Davis came and saw our show, the live show was called Money Mammals Live, which is a super fun show.
And she said, you know, you should really do something like this. You should make this available for credit unions. And it was something that was not even something I had thought about, but it made perfect sense because it was a great way to get in front of a lot more families by offering something like this, that these credit unions wanted something for, to connect with parents and they wanted to have something tied to their youth account to make it more exciting. And so it just was a natural fit to create this program that allowed them to really reach out into the community. that kind of led to us creating all the materials for schools and then the materials not only for kids, but also for parents.
Laura Adams
I love that. So, as you know, I don't have kids. But this is a topic that I see a lot of my friends struggling with. And one of them is, you know, whether they should pay kids an allowance. You wrote a whole book, The Art of the Allowance. Tell me a little bit about why you wrote that book and, you know, give us the short answer, should parents pay the allowance or not?
John Lanza
Well, as you might surmise based on the name of the book, yes, I'm a believer in allowance. And I will tell you why I wrote the book. It's because the most incredible thing happened as you originally think, okay, let's get kids excited. That's all fun. But the most common question I was asked when I was sitting down talking to not just kids, but also the parents was, do you have one of these for a 35-year-old? Do you have one of these for a 45-year-old? Do you have a Money Mammals for that?
I mean, I'm not kidding. Almost every parent asked that question. And so, it dawned to me that, you know what? As excited as the kids get, it's the parents that need to be just as empowered because the parents feel, I mean, this is totally in your wheelhouse, Laura. It's like, you're talking about ways for people to think smart about money all the time.
And so, it's very clear all of us, myself included, want to improve and want to feel confident that we can be our kids' guides. That's really what the question that parents were asking. And so I wrote The Art of Allowance, and The Art of Allowance is, yeah, it gives you an idea of how to set up an allowance, and we'll talk about that, but as you go through the book, it's much more about kind of understanding how to use money as a tool.
And sure, we're teaching our kids to do that, but we also learn alongside them. It's a journey we take together. So, I wanted to feel empowered. I wrote the book for other parents to feel empowered so they can be their kids' guides. And so we keep the concepts pretty simple, but it's all about just empowering not only kids, but the parents. And that's what the art of that. So I have all these little stories and vignettes that are much more about the idea of getting comfortable with how you can use money as a tool to craft the life that you want to lead. Does that make sense?
Laura Adams
Yeah, it's terrific. And I do think that a lot of education in this country, we haven't progressed much with financial literacy in schools because of this very thing you're talking about. A lot of teachers themselves don't feel comfortable with the topic. They are not necessarily finance majors or they don't have any specialized training. So unless they're an economist, they may not feel, or a math teacher, they may not feel particularly qualified.
I wrote a whole personal finance section to an economic textbook simply to encourage the teachers to include a week or two of financial literacy within their class. I have no idea how well that's being used. I know the requirements vary significantly from state to state. We're getting better.
But I'm curious, if you could wave a magic wand and have something within our educational system change, what would that be, if anything? Or do you think that parents should bear the responsibility of teaching kids about money?
John Lanza
They're great questions, Laura, and a few things. So one, one of the things when you talk about economists and math teachers, for example, this gets at one of the difficulties with dealing with money because we think about teaching it like physics, but that's not how we interact with money. We interact with money based on the way we feel, right?
And the way that people learn, the kids learn, that we all learn as we learn through lessons in school, modeling, know, that's a lot of what art of allowance is about, and then direct experience. And I believe that if you don't have the lessons and the experience tied together, it's very hard for you to actually learn lessons that are going to carry forward. And a good example is, think about the foreign language that you took in high school. You don't remember any of that. If you had taken it and then been in the culture of learning it, you would remember it, right? It's the tie of those two things.
So I know when I think about waving the magic wand, I don't tend to think about the schools. I think there's a lot of great work being done in the schools. But it's difficult to be, and what's great about it is it makes a lot of kids aware of the importance of financial literacy, right? But ultimately, we interact with money based on the way we feel about money. And that's really important for kids. And it's one of the reasons you want to start all this process early is that you want kids to start to learn how it feels to spend money on something that is a piece of junk.
And then you've wasted your money, right? And that ends up not really being a waste because you'll learn a lesson. But it's all about that. And everybody is going to feel differently about it. And the feel part is really important because ultimately, if you're going to use money as a tool to craft the life that you want to lead, which is going to require some amount of money, but it's going to be much different for you. It's going to be different. My amount is going to be different than my wife's amount than my daughter's amount. Like they're all different.
It's through that experience that they start to figure out. And it doesn't mean that they come out of young adulthood, and they've been getting an allowance and voila, everything works. It doesn't mean that. It means they've had that experience. They start to understand, okay, there are ways that I can use money that are going to work for me. They're not going to work for me. They don't work for my partner. And that's the difficulty in dealing with it, but it's also why it is so empowering to start this as a parent with your kids at a young age and introducing them to those really basic concepts like we talked about before.
Laura Adams
Yeah, so true. So personal finance is a math issue, but it's also a behavioral issue. It's also getting back to values and what you want your money to accomplish for you. So yeah, I think that's a good point. The schools can only take it so far.
John Lanza
Yeah.
Laura Adams
They can likely help with the more logical side, not necessarily the values or the feeling piece of it so much. So how does a family start? I hear questions like, you know, what's too young? How should I even begin? When do I know it's time to talk with my kids about money?
John Lanza
Well, there's two things. So starting the conversation can be very early. I mean, as young as one or two years old. And that conversation is obviously not going to involve the rule of 72, but it's going to be a very, it's just being prepared for the conversation to happen so that you want to start an open conversation that continues through life. So for the two or three year old, it might be that you go to the store, you give them a dollar and then they buy something with that or you know. With inflation, it might be $5 now!
But the point is, then just have them interact with the money, and it's good to do it with cash, because they can actually see that happening. They can't really understand abstraction. So have them get some cash, and they see, okay, I'm paying money in order to get some kind of goods, and that's good. And they're still going to think a nickel is worth more than a dime, because a nickel's bigger than a dime.
That's not the point. The point is really, they're starting to see money interaction. It's becoming just a part of their life and you're opening up the conversation. but then ultimately allowance is the big entree into them becoming empowered with money. And five years old tends to be a good time. Does it mean that if your kid is 10 that you've lost it, it's all over? No, of course not. But five is a good place to start.
And a good easy starter allowance is you set up three jars, you got your share jar for charitable giving, your save jar for money that you're going to save for goals, and then you’ve got your spend smart jar, which is just your discretionary money. You can use it for whatever you want. And you, we, a good way to start is say $5 per week. And you give that money to the kids. And there are different ways to think about this. And everybody, you have to take all personal advice with a grain and salt.
So I will tell you the way that we did it, which is we would take $1 and put it in the share jar. And that's to say charitable giving is meaningful. And you can use this for charitable giving $1 into the save jar. That's for your goals. And then put the $3 into your spend smart jar. And you can also, if they want to save more, you can incentivize them to put more money into their save jar. But the beauty of the allowance isn't that whole structure. It's that it very quickly becomes useful to them because if you say to them, we're starting an allowance and now when we go to the store, if you want something, you have your own money.
So now the first time you go to the store, if you've been indulging them a lot, there might be a tantrum or two, right? But if you stick to your guns and they want something and it's more than what they have, so they show up to the store, they're like, you I want that game, that game is $20. You say to them, well, how much money do you have?
If they say I have $5. You say, well, you can't get that game. But what we can do is when we go home, we'll put a picture of that game on your save jar. We'll figure out how long it's going to take for you to save for it. You can save for it. And then you can buy it. And the nice part about that too is then they have a little bit more time to think about that goal, right? And it might be by the time they get to it, they may not want that thing.
For a younger kid, you're not going to have a long-term goal set. Their goal is going to be three to four weeks. They're going to get a little bit of delayed gratitude, but also they can kind of keep their attention on it and get to that goal. And suddenly money becomes something empowering for them. They're learning to make money choices and they're learning to get comfortable around money.
Laura Adams
Yeah, I love that. So it is really more of a tool for discussion and lessons than trying to build their savings account. It’s great if you can do that as well, but I like the idea of just a small amount making it just a way to, as you said, split it into jars, make it visual, make it real.
What about some of the kids' debit cards and things that are out there? You know, have you ever used any of those as tools? Some of them do have financial literacy kind of baked into them. You know, are there any good ones that you might recommend?
John Lanza
Yeah, we have used Greenlight, we have used Current, and they are very effective tools because they are very, it makes it very easy to get the money to your kids. You can set up an allowance with them. The allowance that I explained before is kind of the starter allowance. So that goes from say age five to roughly tween age, so 10 or 11 years old. And then typically what you'll do is,
Some families like we did will do a larger allowance, because I said the other one was kind of weekly, and then you do the larger allowance, but it's given out on a monthly basis. So they start to understand, it's more like life. They're going to get something bi-weekly or monthly, right? And then they have to figure out how to make that last. They'll get more money, but they'll have more responsibilities, right? So now they might be responsible for food out with friends or gifts, and you can set it up however you want.
Once you move there, that's a good time to move from a physical allowance to a digital allowance, because it's a lot easier as a parent to do the digital allowance. And they have to get used to it because they're living in a digital world. They're going to see their friends are going to have cards. I mean, that's very often how these things work is like, oh, my friend has this card. So I want to get this card–they're very effective tools. They, you know, they're not, they are not financial literacy vehicles in and of themselves. They have materials that do that.
But ultimately, it's the experience, I don't think, it's the experience of using the money that really matters more than any of the additional aspects of the cards. But it is a great tool for parents because it simplifies things and it makes it so that, again, it's empowering the kids to kind of start to learn to use money and to learn to use digital money because that's something they're going to have to start to understand the abstraction of digital money versus the physical
Laura Adams
What are some of the biggest mistakes that you see parents making when it comes to just relating to kids about money?
John Lanza
It's a great question. And I think the biggest, one of the biggest ones is not getting started. That is a big one. And you, and because you feel like you have, all of us have a certain amount of money shame, myself included, right? The dumb mistakes you've made. You know, you think about, if I had made that investment, if I hadn't sold Apple, you know, as early as I did, if I hadn't sold Amazon, like you think about these things, you think, how can I be the one to teach my kids?
But you have to be the one to teach your kids. And all those mistakes are just part of your arsenal for teaching. And so you just want to get started. And the reason that getting started early is great is that you're talking about the simplest stuff for your kids. And so you can realize, I was talking to Andy Hill, who was on my podcast and he was saying, he's very into charitable giving and he realized when he was talking to his kids that he was not giving as much as he would like to be giving. He was asking them to save 10 % or share 10 % of his money and he wasn't. And it led to him making a change in his own life. So we can use this as that opportunity. So it's not starting as a big part of it.
And then the other one is feeling like this is too complicated because there's a lot of different topics in financial literacy. And they're important topics, things like, you know, insurance and taxes and those. And you should have those conversations, but ultimately what we want our kids to enter the adult world and learning, I think, are the idea of saving a portion of what you make, which starts way early, as we saw with the allowance, we're getting them putting that money into the save jar, making sure that they have, they're living beneath their means.
And that you just show by modeling and from them having that limited allowance and having to live within their means there. And then I think we haven't really talked about investing, but the idea of long investing and the idea that anything short term is not investing, it's speculating. And you know, you can go and speculate, but you need to understand that that's speculation. Right. And so those three things are really what matter.
And you know what? If we have any issues as parents about those things, we can make changes in our lives to address those three things. So it can be incredibly empowering to go on this journey with your kids so that you make sure you're a better model, which is better for yourself and better for your kids. Does it make sense?
Laura Adams
Yeah. And if you were to write the book for the 30, 40, 50-year-old, what do you think would be some big takeaways that you would see as themes in those books?
John Lanza
Hmm. That is a good question. I would stick with those. I think that we need to see a money simplicity shift in our country. And the toughest one again is because it's a feeling issue. It's a psychological issue. And it's not a science issue. No, it's like this idea of living beneath our means. Right.
It's so easy to say, it is so hard to do. I mean, Laura, when I graduated college, and I'm not kidding, I can actually show you a picture of my grandfather talking to me. I dedicated the Art of Allowance to my grandfather because he said to me, the day I graduated college, he said to understand two things: Live beneath your means and understand the power of compound interest. Everything else will fall into place.
And I didn't really heed his advice. And I wasn't a crazy spendthrift or anything like that, but I didn't really think about it as much until I got a little bit older. And I really think he's right. And if you throw in there, I mean, the obvious thing, you have to have income in order to feed these things. But you have that living beneath your means and you have this idea of long investing or understanding compound interest, right?
And I don't know if you're familiar with A Simple Path to Wealth by J.L. Collins, but what I love about that book is he just says for most of us, For most of us, if we just take our money and put it in a total stock market index fund and make sure that it's a low fee fund, we're pretty much going to be good, right? If you have the itch to go and do some speculative investing, use Jason Zweig's idea of a mad money account. You know, it's like 10 % of your money or 5 % of your money. Have fun. That's great.
But it's understanding that that's speculation, right? So if you have that living beneath your means, you have the long investing, and then you're making sure that you're saving a portion of what you make, it's like, I'm not sure that there's, you you do have to understand all the other areas of financial literacy, but you can get that information and you can bring in advisors to help you with that information as necessary, as you've talked about many times on your show.
So that's what that book would be about, that money simplicity shift and trying to figure out how we do better at this idea of living beneath our means. Because I think that's the difficult part is because we're always, we're just comparison machines. Like we can't help it. not, I talk about this stuff doesn't mean that I'm not comparing myself to friends all the time. It's just, you just have to become mindful of what those comparisons, what matters to you in your life, right?
And so that when you make those comparisons that you can kind of step back and realize, okay, that's not important to me. And realize what is important to you, what's not important to you.
Laura Adams
Yeah, that's great. You know, in other countries, the savings rate is so much higher. You know, like in Japan, it's like 25%. There is a culture of living below your means, a culture of saving, preparing for the future that yeah, we in this country just really haven't embraced for so many reasons.
But yes, I love the simplicity factor. The more simple we can make it, the more likely people are to get started, to begin investing. And as you said, just a broad market index fund is going to do the trick. That's what I do. It's not what I have always done. I learned a lot of lessons about trying to time the market, looking at really researching companies. I enjoyed doing that for many years, but ultimately it did not pay off, it wasn't worth the time or effort. So for me, you know, I've really learned that passive investing is just more, more for my money. It's giving me my time back. I don't listen to the news. I don't, you know, I don't get frustrated by day to day changes. For me, I'm all about long term growth. And so that's what I encourage folks to do as well.
I kind of think about investing like driving a car. It's a vehicle to get you from A to B. There are people who love to get under the hood. They want to change their own oil. They want to tinker. But you don't have to know any of that to just get in the car and drive from point A to B. I feel like an index fund is kind of like that. It can get you there, even though you don't know a whole lot about the securities underneath the hood. And that's OK. There's nothing wrong with that.
John Lanza
Yeah.
Laura Adams
I do encourage people to learn about investing if that's of interest. But for the vast majority of people, we really don't have the time, the inclination to do that. And why do it if you can get good reasonable returns without having to invest that time into the research? So yeah, I'm all about simplicity.
So I love that kind of thinking and that would probably be a book that I would write as well. I think there are so many folks out there that are really afraid of investing, unfortunately. And when we have an uncertain economy and climate, you know, that only adds to people staying away from investing. And that's kind of the opposite. It's sort of the time you really need to be investing and shoring up your own financial security.
John Lanza
Yeah. I think we all, because what we do is we have, again, this comes down to comparison. People will come to us and say, I earned this amount over this short period of time. It's so exciting, right? Whatever I put in this money and it doubled. And we're chasing these schemes when what really matters is the length of time. And that's what compound interest is all about. And the difficult part of it, because like you, Laura, I've only learned this, you know, through experience through difficult experience of making not so smart investments, right. And now realize, you know what, I don't want to spend a lot of time thinking about the investments.
But you realize that time is real. And this is why it's so important to talk to kids about it because they have, that is the number one thing they have on their side. If you could just get that money and start having it work for you, you have time on your side. That's what's really exciting. And again, if you want to indulge the fun side of it, take a portion, have fun with it, do that, but make sure that you've got that, you're taking advantage of time. Cause that is, it's such a huge benefit to kids.
Laura Adams
What was your childhood experience like when it comes to money?
John Lanza
You know, I'm very fortunate because my parents were very frugal. They did start an allowance once and then it kind of petered out. We didn't talk a lot about it, which is interesting because my dad was a banker. So we talked about like the, what money is, but we didn't talk necessarily about how it felt. And that's partially just a generational thing.
But I think as models, they were excellent in terms of that. That frugality, I think, was key. So that you at least get a sense because I think it's tough for kids who come from families or see a lot of, you know, heavy spending, right? Because it's actually just difficult, it's difficult to deal with in today's media landscape because, I mean, basically every ad that’s out there designed to tell you that you're lesser than you could be and this product is the answer to your prayers. And so when you have that coming at you all the time, it's tough for kids to figure out how they can keep themselves from spending a lot of money on these various products. And so having good models was very fortunate to have.
Laura Adams
Yeah, that's great. Tell me what topics you like to talk about on the Art of Allowance podcast.
John Lanza
We cover a lot of ground. So one of the things I like most is I like to talk to money experts and parents and often both because I'm talking about all these ideas. Every one of you who's listening is gonna take the ideas and grab little bits of each part of different ideas. Like I was talking about, I talked to Joe Salsehi, who is of the Stacking Benjamins and he talked to, and we both had the same technique that we used independently, which was the circle back technique, which is when you see your kid buying something you think is a questionable purchase, make a note and come back to them in a week or two and say, how did that, how did that make you feel? Which ties back into what money really is for kids. Like how does it make you feel? So they start to be reflective about the use of money.
So that's what I like about it is I get to talk to these really smart people who very often are also parents and they can share all these ideas. And so that our listeners can then grab whatever idea is going to work for them and their family. Because it's just like the book, it's like providing a structure for an allowance, but you're going to make your allowance work for your family. And it's going to be different for your family than my family. And it's going to be different from kid to kid to some extent, because our kids are very different, right? That's what I love about it is just covering all that different ground. Plus, we also cover media literacy, getting smart about cybersecurity, we cover the gamut.
Laura Adams
Terrific. John, I'm so impressed with your work and everything that you've accomplished. Where can listeners go to learn a little bit more and connect with you?
John Lanza
The easiest place is to just go to themoneymammals.com and you can get access to the podcast. We have some downloads to get started with your first allowance. You can grab those. Those are free. And you can find a little bit of the Money mammals videos. And then you can connect with me on social media through the links there. So themoneymammals.com is the best resource for people to go to find out.
Laura Adams
Awesome, John, thank you so much.
John Lanza
Thank you, Laura.
Laura Adams
A big thanks to John for coming on the show!
That's all for now. I'll talk to you soon. Until then, here's to living a richer life!
Money Girl is a Quick and Dirty Tips podcast, and I want to thank our fantastic team!
Steve Riekeberg audio-engineers the show. Brannan Goetschius is our director of podcasts, Holly Hutchings is our digital operations specialist, Morgan Christianson is our advertising operations specialist, Davina Tomlin is our marketing and publicity associate, and Nathaniel Hoopes is our marketing contractor.